Click to reveal the popularity, staggering or otherwise, of women's pro surfing v the men…
Transparency is a fine thing, in biz, relationships and so forth. Until it isn’t.
And just as YouTube views demonstrated a less than y0u’d expect viewership of WSL event clips, Facebook Live has done something no other app, news organisation or company has been able to do: directly compare viewership numbers between the men’s and women’s events at J-Bay.
This would normally be little more than a curio, a side-note, if it weren’t for the fury over a recent junior event where the winner of the girl’s received a winner’s cheque that was exactly half her male counterpart.
(In little-boy-standing-on-the-corner-with-newspaper-bag voice, “Reeeeeeead all about it!”)
So, in similar waves, on the same week, with the same infrastructure, how did the women rate against the men? I figured it’d be roughly half. Five k or so. I don’t miss a heat with Carissa, Gilmore, Ho or Peterson. The rest I don’t watch. By force of numbers I presumed the men would be twice as popular.
From a glitchy start (don’t worry, I called around to see if it was just my connection), numbers hovered around 500, gradually got to a thousand, climbed…climbed…and peaked, as far as I could see, at around 2200 heads watching the English feed.
The best I saw on the Spanish feed was 302. The Portuguese around 350.
I emailed a pal in the UK who replied: “Ok, you ready for this. In a marquee Rd 2 match up between Carissa and Courtney, the numbers are hovering between 240-270! Staggering.”
It’s here the WSL will interject, of course, and remind us that these numbers are geographically specific. Two thousand in Australia, 302 Spanish viewers in Australia, 350 Portuguese and Brazilians watching in Australia and so on.
And, yet, in the Australian feed.
“Hello from sunny Ireland!” wrote Paddy Keane.
And the names of fans liking the feed were distinctly monocultural. Was Australia’s famously surf-crazy Arabic community all tuned in to the women? Hello Mustapha! Hello Fatima!
At some point during the feed, the WSL switched their app back onto live streaming.
Did that drain the viewer numbers?
In Australia, was the nation tuned into the broadcast on Fox Sports?
A few minutes ago, and unprompted, a noted professional surfer texted me and asked: “Is the WSL or dead or is FB that’s dead? Or both? So fascinating how podcasts are so much bigger than everything.”
Still, the numbers aren’t definitive. Tonight, howevs, and thanks to an IT pro, we’re going to get numbers from every continent.
Stay tuned, as they say in the classics.
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Podcasts are so much bigger than everything? Unfortunately we use real figures to sell ads….as such we have no ads 🙂
I did this
The only conclusion to make is the sport is being run by amateurs.
By all means flip the feed back to the app when people start getting up in arms.
But why even address the viewing numbers thing? A legitimate sport would just let those questions go straight through to the keeper. Let people believe the numbers must be bullshit because surely more than 10,000 surfers in the world are watching the event live. By addressing it, all that happens is someone goes and adds the numbers up and then you have a de facto official number and hell, those numbers look shite.
Then you have the lame name for the tour (league???), the inept handling of the pipe contest, the inept handling of the Fiji contest, the vainglorious attempt to shoehorn the IOC into spending millions on your boring wave pool technology, the weird attempt to make the season finish in September – in Indonesia of al places – the shambolic handling of the feminist propoganda fantasy that is unequal prize money… And that’s all just in the past 12 months.
Like Nick Carroll said: All they ever wanted when they started pro surfing was to crown a male and female world champ with some sort of legitimacy. We don’t need to spread pro surfing to the masses. We all lose. We personally don’t care whether the surfers win huge prizemoney. It’s all moot. All we want is to see some hot surfers in competition and let one of them be the best. If they get a plastic troll standing on a surfboard for a trophy, that’s the way it goes.
If they really want to “monetize” the thing then fuck, just pick up the phone to red bull and be done with it.
this is good talk.
I love women just hate progressive millennial whiney brainwashed losers.
Needs more references to the patriarchy and mysogyny to be a good troll mate.
Hey Derek, it’s hard to get a read of your actual take on this saga. I can only assume that, because of your partner Chas’ recent podcast highlighting the industry wide issue of white male boys club syndrome, you / your website are for equality in the ranks of pro surfing. The issue is way more complex I get it… but I am wondering why none of the major surf media outlets, yours included, can be bothered actually doing a daily recap of the womens tour events as with the male events. I would argue that some of the surfing and storylines within each event, including the world title race, is way more exciting on the womens tour right now. Surely you could commission your precious Longtom (big fan by the way) or Jen See (also big fan) to give us some witty prose about the days undertakings. If the industry can’t be fucked (thats you and the teat you suckle off) then what real hope is there for the girls when us lemmings who turn to your bright lights and catchy headlines to tell us what is worth wasting our time on are shown these mixed messages. Everyone, especially all the surf media outlets, can talk a big game when it suits them to grab a headline over gender equality but, without actually being different to the problem, you are just another part of issue within the whole hypocritical sham. I actually don’t really give a fuck about discussing the whole equality thing (because it’s a much bigger problem than can be solved by sub par journalism) but be better as a media outlet if you and your colleagues are going to try and take the higher ground over PC correctness. Or maybe you’re not and I have missed the point completely. Big fan of the website by the way but don’t dont hide behind the “grit” label with hypocritical standards when you can actually stand to the left and make some noise.
There is no problem hence no article. Like the WNBA womens surfing will always and necessarily have a tiny audience. Why is that you ask (although it’s plain as day)? Because most humans have limited free time and in the time have numerous options on how to spend it. If we choose to spend it in front of a screen watching a sport, it need be damn compelling as their are innumerable options vying for our attention. Take pro basketball as an example, unless it’s the NBA finals or some extraordinary athlete like Jordan, many won’t watch even though they are the best in the world. It’s just not that compelling…even to watch the best. Now take the women’s game that is many a notch lower than the men’s and is, quite frankly, painful to watch. Who, other than family members and their lesbian partners are going to watch that? Masochists….the mentally ill?
So then take women’s surfing. Keep in mind that a core surfer who somewhat follows the tour is hard pressed to sit in front of a screen unless the waves are firing and the heat currently on includes surfers worth watching and with JJ now out that pool has been reduced. That pool would vary per viewer, but for me it would be (Kelly, Felipe, Gabe, Griff…maybe Mikey) other than that, I’m probably not watching. Now then, why would I spend any time at all watching the women? Yes, Steff has a good style but so does almost every man on tour (some more some less) but not one of them could even come close to surfing at the professional men’s level. Again, if most of the mens heats aren’t worthy of my time, how is even one women’s heat going to be?
Some good points in there Aloha. I think you can also add major fuck up up with scheduling. Who the fuck, in this day and age, has the attention span, time or the desire to watch back to back comps, men’s or women’s?
True. And contest running during the the middle of the night (west coast Cali time that is) not helpful either.
hi hey thanks kindly 🙂
totally feel you on all of this, for reals. my schedule is super wack, so fitting in contest coverage is probably not going to be workable. but i do have plans to slide some women’s stories into the mix. i have one in the queue, i’m hoping to get finished for next week.
the first year (2015) WSL took over I worked on the WSL internet livestream. The surf was pumping for this one event the most views at one time was 15,000 and I remember when Kelly lost to a wild card everyone I worked with said it was time to pack up just the core workers would stay and finish the job…
So where’s the review of the 1st day of women’s surfing? We all love to put the boot into the numbers, but if there’s any genuine interest in equality I woulda thought Beachgrit would pony up and pay Longtom for coverage of the women’s event.
Oh yes! If Longtom wants to stay up through these murderously long nights (he’s AEST), we’re happy…overjoyed… to pay for his stories.
I watched the replay on wsl – saw Cocos 9.
ffs – cmon what a load of bs
Who could stay up all night to see some otherworldly scale being applied to the women’s event and not check yourself into an asylum ?
Besmirch my Coco again, “friend,” and you and me are gonna have to step outside.
Lol. I think Coco’s great !
No offence intended.
It was the scale being used to judge that I was criticising.
I know…that’s why I was screwing with you.
Actually…I’m hoping that Coco is reading the comments and appreciates my gentlemanly defense of her honor.
For me her 9 was the only J-Bayesque wave (so far)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…
Just let me reset my body clock after this round of shift work.
Pay should be in quotes, Derek.
Tough timing for the women with their event following the mens at the same venue. Viewers are pretty much already JBay sated.
And there’s the old show business rule, you really don’t want to be following the main act.
I’m gonna be absolutely transparent and say that while I normally only do charity when I can work it to lower my taxes; I used my burner email created specifically to watch the comp to sign up for the Beachgrit newsletter email whatever. Help Chas and big D stave off bar tending for a little longer. Sign up!
We’re still available for bar work too!
Sell our emails to spammers!
Not being sarcastic when I say I would love to hire you two for a early evening summer soiree, but the only thing I need more than friends with beautiful smiles and books written about cocaine is money.
I’m Drouyn level confused by the take-away from all of this…
Have the WSL duped FB into buying a dead duck?
Or did they actually believe their product was better than this?
Has pro surfing been a Trojan horse filled with sand and muck and Barton Lynch’s tears all along?
Are we the cunts? Us scatter of nobodies around the globe who’ve been invested in watching something that we were convinced lots of other people liked too?
I feel genuinely marooned, and more than a little embarrassed.
I love the take that the WSL is brilliant in this. Honestly, never crossed my mind that could be a possibility. Well done, sir.
‘Drouyn level confused’ ..jesus h you are a legend, Chazz
Move down to Australia and just watch it on foxsports
Couldn’t of said it any better myself. I almost feel weird for watching it knowing how little people actually give a shit.
really?
I’ll still watch but yea.
Who cares what the rest of humanity thinks about surfing? It’s our little secret eh!?!? (Taps nose wisely)
Yeah that’s it right there mate. Just watch it and don’t give a fuck. Real surfers see through most of the bullshit.
“We happy few! We band of fuckwits!”
Thanks for the reference to Henry V. Hoping the tables will be turned this time if the monarchy comes up against the republic .
Well like many others here in Oz I watched the Fox Sports coverage of the JBay finals on a big screen at a pub with two score or more of enthusiastic, cheering, imbibing viewers. It was a great night out for us surf fans !!
As an interesting side, note, many years ago at the same venue I once witnessed the now confused Mr P Drouyn do his famous race call using a beer jug as a pa/mic prop. The once talented genius could be compared to a mad scientist or a maestro artist!!…..but more like a cracked actor!!
I’m wondering if it’s a fucked up status thing. That is, “I surf and I watched jbay”. Society is fucked. Agree, it’s so embarrassing.
Transparency?
Reigning world champ Tyler Wright withdraws without a single mention on the WSL site.
I noticed. I thought maybe I was the one being stupid, but I couldn’t find anything at all.
So uh… that’s weird.
From JBay?
aye
I reckon owen’s head injury is playing up….
It’s troubling why not just tell the truth? KP looked shifty as F telling the viewers it was a cold. Mikey changed subject when Rosie mentioned it. And Gabriel said Owen was injured?
SHHHHH!!!! DONT BLOW THEIR COVER!!! THEY’RE SECRET AGENTS AND NOW OFF RESCUING HOSTAGES USING SURFING AS AN EXCUSE TO TRAVEL. DONT TELL NOBODY RIGHT!?!!
Please reveal the truth….someone. Anyone? Did they join the secret alternate tour?
If only there was a surf media website dedicated to telling the inconvenient truths and blowing things open…
Coming soon
And Owen withdrew as well? I smell a rat…
“Facebook Live has done something no other app, news organisation or company has been able to do: directly compare viewership numbers between the men’s and women’s events”
Derek…mate…I did it four years ago: https://www.swellnet.com/ne…
Want a few excerpts?
From Snapper: “The first heat of the day was between Alana Blanchard and Dimity Stoyle. It attracted 10,887 viewers which was also the peak viewing of the entire day. The media may well have deemed it an historic day but the audience numbers didn’t reflect that sentiment. The viewership slid all day and by the last heat the women were registering just 5,000 concurrent viewers. By comparison the men averaged 20,000 at the Quiksilver Pro and peaked at over 40,000.”
Steph Gilmore is surfing for the World Title at Cascais, Portugal: “During those crucial quarterfinal heats the viewership maxed out at just 1,145, plus 23 Portuguese locals enjoying commentary in their native tongue. In total there were a mere 1,170 sets of eyes watching matchpoint for the women’s world title. Meanwhile, up the coast at France, 35,000 viewers watched the men in the Quiksilver Pro France, a competition without any bearing on their world title.”
Few other “direct comparisons” in there, plus choice quotes from Dave Pro about their future investment in women’s surfing.
Solid work there, Stu. Thanks for the link and the read.
No worries. What followed was a tense three way conference call between myself, Dave Prodan, and Graham Stapelberg, and then Swellnet being banned from all WSL events.
Damn so the totalitarian tactics have been going on for a while now.. Don’t feel too bad, Prodan’s a fucking putz of the highest order.
Prodan’s a wonderful man who does a very difficult job very well. Even his obfuscations have a wonderful charm about ’em.
Very?????????
Your optimism is as bright as your pearly white smile, Derek.
Oh tell me more about the tense call… and sorry for stealing your story!
You know the whole good cop, bad cop schtick with, in turns, Dave placating and G spitting vitriol, questioning mine and Swellnet readers’ intelligence.
Prior to the call, however, there was talk of a “secret YouTube stream” that purportedly carried vast quantities of viewers (sound familiar?) yet by the end of the conference call I knew that was a figment of someone’s imagination.
Ha.
The problem with Sophie’s regional argument is that, as Derek pointed out in the age of global communications, it’s easy enough to get your mate in England, Sao Paulo, Ericeira, Hossegor, Berlin, Corona Del Mar, etc etc to tell you how many there and then add them up.
Anyway you do the math it’s a low number. Yay! Something to celebrate, not run from. Embrace it Soph.
Math is so basic even a homeschooled ‘CT surfer could count that high.
I wonder how potential sponsors are seeing this?
Target pulled out of the Honolua bay comp as the viewing numbers did not stack up to the pitch they were sold …..and Samsung .
so I wonder how the WSL is seeing their sponsorship from FB , as a stepping stone to a Global sponsor , and what $’s would naming rights bring …$6.37?
Forget the viewer numbers- as a potential/current sponsor, would you be happy ponying up for something like this? http://www.worldsurfleague…. You could spend hours sifting through the comments to try and find something positive about the deal. But despite backflips/faceplants – a- plenty,- http://www.worldsurfleague…. “We remain committed and excited about sharing the stoke of surfing with Facebook, and to grow the audience for the benefit of the sport going forward.” , and “WSL CEO Sophie Goldschmidt’s Message to the Fans” found here- http://www.worldsurfleague…. they still don’t get that Fuckbook’s a slide to oblivion. Maybe they can extend the waiting period by 9 days til this comes out – https://www.poopourri.com
That says it all – if you are in a supposed “location” and then can interact in another say Ireland to Oz – then the numbers are totals!! I did notice when the desk top was active the viewers watching were removed. As said yesterday these number stats have totally fucked their business model ( if they had one with FB)
Similar to the numbers I saw. I started watching on Facebook then switched to Foxtel.
It’s always gonna be the issue with women’s sport and a huge reason why there is a pay difference.
Yeah, the difference between the women and the massive 3,500 eyeballs the men got is staggering!
The men varied from 8k to 23k from what I saw.
The men’s first and second rounds hovered around 2.2k for most of the time. Number only started moving in round three, when they headed up to 3.5-5k, a bit higher for a couple of heats. Finals day was 19-24k. Surprise! People watch finals.
Fascinating – to me anyway – how similar those peak numbers seem to be to what Stu plucked out of the YouTube ether in 2014. The audience for this seems static, unless it’s a very special or weird occasion, or it’s in the right time zone for the US market.
I still sorta dunno what everyone expects. There’s not 35 million surfers in the world, there’s maybe three and a half million, and a lot of that three and half million aren’t super engaged in the culture – they kinda only go a fraction of a way into it. This is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.
Be interesting to see the global numbers stacked up for each event at the end of the season to see which ones get the most viewers. It was perfect viewing time for Western Aust, but not so good for the US and Brazil.
Check the article Stu wrote/linked somewhere in these comments.. Cumulative breakdown for 2014. As NC noted, probably not too far off current year numbers.
Well that’s been the argument against the surf industry for decades Nick. The industry is tone deaf, developed clothing based on counter cultures that derived their start from surfing (skate, snowboard). The industry asked surfers to follow that fashion lead and lost us (sorry Orange County).
I live 1 mile from a world class point break in many peoples opinion and nobody gives a shit about the tour…. vaguely are even aware of it even though several of our locals are CT qualified. More telling, you could ask a wide range of guys in the parking lot about NFL football and you’ll inspire passionate opinion.
Which can be viewed as a good thing, but the hidden demographic Sophie should chase is actual surfers…. how counterintuitive is that?
The industry never saw surfings best interests in concert with their own greed. They sold the art to create a business that never attended to it’s foundational audience because it didn’t represent enough market share. The fashion winds of change blew and with it suffocated commercial retail bad investments. How long would sheep continue to pay extra money to advertise another’s business…. like human billboards? The compromises were many.
Pandering to potential bigger market shares took the stage away from the audience willing to sit through lulls, judging anomalies and interviews during live action (?????). Who would sit through all that crap to watch 2 scoring waves? How dare a vapid interview require a scoring wave be viewed as a replay only? Who is directing this shit. “Hey Joe, I think Fanning is being attacked by a shark” as Joe keeps reading his lengthy script. Why weren’t they watching the water? Are they announcing from a studio set? Does it even face the water?
I could go on and on.
The wheels came off this bus a long time ago buddy.
Thats it! I live in Vic down the surfcoast way. there would easily be 10,000 regular surfers in this state alone. Why aren’t they all watching surfing live? Most obvious answer, they simply don’t care! I rarely hear chatter in the water about it. I watch every contest as i work from home, dont like TV and am not interested in main stream sports. 99% of people i know watch footy, cricket, garbabe free to air TV etc etc. Work normal jobs and have families. How are they expected to fit in 5 days of live surfing at random times? Meanwhile all the best waves end up on youtube, insta, facebook, stab, beachgrit etc etc, theres no need to watch! The entire final is on youtube now, 1 day old and up to 34k views, twice that of the live viewers.
Also, where are all these Brazillian fans the WSL seems to be banking on? I would understand if their stream had 500k.
Usually they are announcing from a studio set, yep. This means they only comment on what’s on the screen, not on what’s happening beyond the screen, so viewers don’t get confused. Then they throw to Strider!
I had a really long talk the other day, background-only, with someone who played a key role in the top end of the ASP structure for the last decade or so prior to the arrival of Zosea. This person had no allegiance with any surf industry brand. In his mind, the ASP only really had one mission: to crown a mens and womens world champion each year with as much accuracy and competitive integrity as possible. Back then, in reality, it was all the ASP COULD do — the organisation had almost no resources and was perpetually in debt. Now, the organisation is the power and the money, the surfers are contracted employees, and the brands are “naming rights partners”, and the whole thing feels really odd, at least to me — like that simple mission has been submerged beneath a tide of god knows what.
Feels odd to me as well, only because even now, as you’ve stated, the organization has the money and power and they continue to rely on essentially the same format for competition while now attempting to turn a profit. If the goal is to now actually make real money (eight figures), then the current format doesn’t appear to be working. I’ll spare any readers out there the redundancy of new format suggestions but suffice to say a complete overhaul may be their only hope.
Brody was a good man, but owned.
Sovereignity for the tour escaped his realm. The companies you wrote for limited his potential. Our discussion today only happens because the tours parent corpo’s have lost their leverage. Or you’ve welcomed the publics opinion?
When we were talking about it, Nick, you were defending the industry. Proud as you were. Such an insider. Entrenched. We didn’t understand. You held the truth. ?
The wheels were falling off this bus years ago amigo. You were one of the paid drivers.
I’m not talking about Brodie Carr. Ease up on the judgement hippy. I’m getting over it. (My apparent addiction to the surfing industry, that is.)
Kind of (only slightly) explains why Strides always seems so far out in left field.. compared to Joe and Pottz he’s actually in the sauce as it were.
Absolutely a good thing. When I first wrote those articles, the WSL’s then-CMO Michael Lynch stated pro surfing had “130 million hand raisers and 120 million bona fide fans of the sport.” And that “there’s a potential to have some 250 million real fans.”
It’s easy to laugh at those numbers now, yet they were sourced by Repucom, a sports marketing company now owned by Nielsen Sports, and Dirk Ziff was about to drop his silver into the chamber to realise them. At the time, who was to say it couldn’t happen?
Clearly the research was way off point, and that’s a hell of a relief. Surf Ranch is a curveball, but I dont believe it’ll create more numbers in the water. These days I could hardly care; fun to look at the disparity but there ain’t no threat.
PS: I unsuccessfully tried to get hold of the questions Repucom asked to calculate those numbers. Love to know what they were.
I cannot even imagine the levels of shit those kinds of companies talk to each other.
Roflmao.
Auto up ^
Great insight Stu. Solid.
What would you ask within the questionnaire to determine a surfer’s bona fides?
Far as I could gather the question asked were around levels of interest, not participation, with the WSL assuming they could convert those interested parties into surfers. They started with base figures lifted from the Sweeney report which is all bogus anyway.
What’d I ask? Straight up, how many times a week/month do you surf?
Extra question for core surfers: Do you want more surfers in the water? The answers to that given to Sophie G who, even as of yesterday, was talking about expanding surfing’s fan base.
I should say I don’t mind other people surfing, like it’s not mine to hold back from other people and I’m kinda happy to give it away to others, I’ve been lucky to be given it in the first place. But pro surfing ain’t gonna expand its fan base, other than maybe a few more core surfers watching killer Pipe or whatever, and I think they’re a bit misled thinking that should be a goal. They can’t out-grow other sports. They can however outwit them.
Sounds like those numbers were built on a series of heavily caveated assumptions that probably featured in the appendices in 6 point font of the obligatory pitch deck.
Dead right Stu – it could be surfing’s version of Coca Cola’s “New Coke” 1980’s fuck up!
Close….6.3K during the Rd1 Ht 1, climbed to 10K during Kellys heat, peaked around 13K Rnd1.
Stayed in the 13-15K range for Day 2 and 3 and hovered in the 18-23 range for Finals Day.
I’ve just started a new job, so can’t watch mens or womens surfing. I apologise for cutting down viewing numbers by 7%.
Also, I’ve stopped facebooking and wsl watching.
whats the new gig?
Yard slave at the recycling shop at Noosa Tip. Got a nice 6’8″ Local Motion Takoro in there at the moment and a 7’0″ JC just went yesterday.
Why are Noosa people throwing away classic Hawaiian surfboards?
Probably too short ( under 9’) and not made out of cherry wood by a modern retro artist ?
There’s a beat to hell Santosha and a couple of epoxies too. Noosa people can throw some crazy stuff away.
Top job. Worked on a tip during the golden years 20 years ago when you were allowed to take home whatever you wanted and before people got savvy on ebay. The missus went mental on a daily basis, but amongst other things I brought home: 2 kayaks, multiple bikes for repair (never repaired), an early 70’s shortboard (now worth a smidge), loads of stereo seperates, more vinyl than I could find shelf space for (some of now v valuable), a lovely arne jacobson-style egg chair and a staffordshire bull pup that loved me like no other for the rest of her happy life.
Apparently, it’s going back to the WSL site? So some people may be watching that way.
Ugh, the conditions for round 2 were not… inspiring. I skipped around on the replays and didn’t watch it all, by any means.
Truly heehawing us around