The two noted surfers on the ethics of killing bulls for kicks!
As surfers, we consider ourselves as God’s anointed. Therefore, it’s important that the bigger issues of life, more than just the volume of a man’s board, are discussed, examined and analysed.
Today, two surfers, the nineties retro-stud Joel Tudor, whom you’ve read about recently, here (“Crying is for baby girls!), here (“I’d kick you in the fucking knees!”) and here (Hypocrisy: Joel Tudor flouts no-booze rule!), goes at it with eighties shaper-turned-logo Shawn Stüssy.
The topic?
Bullfighting.
Earlier today, Stüssy posted a photo of a torero, the curve of the bullfighter’s muscled hams splendid in his suit of lights, poised with his descabello, ready for the kill.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BXWO4j5Bsrc/?hl=en&taken-by=shawnstussy
Tudor jumped on with,
“So sad to watch in person. I had no idea that the bull would get stabbed fifty times before these dudes show and get praised for being macho – the party and running was cool to participate in… seeing this after… not so much :(”
“(And) that thing below his horn is one of many swords still stuck in him by the sideshow clowns.”
Stüssy reeled in Tudor.
First.
“Very aware of the downsides of many of these archaic human practices, horse racing, circuses, boxing etc… I was drawing the parallels of body stance in relation to surfing… but as much as I am against the cruelty stuff for sure, this old school shit is when the world was different and I dig the romance of it all… I guess the world needs its safe room now from anything they do not agree with, you feel me?”
And.
“(The) flip side just for fun, go to a slaughter house and tell me how we should feel about that big ol’ steak after surfing or that hamburger our kids are chowing?… for me this insta thing is about imagery and vibe, not my place to stand on a soap box or try to sell you something… so remember that if your eyes come my way on this format I am not here to draw a line in the sand, make a puffed up stand on anything, just eye candy my brother.”
Tudor:
“Go see it in person – you will never respect these dudes afterwards.”
Among the commentariat, opinion was roughly divided.
Fashionsphinx: “I am from where they breed fighting bulls…south of Spain…in a proper bull fight the bull has as much a following as the fighter….those bulls are bred for fighting, it’s an ancient rare breed. If bullfighting goes so do those bulls…over…the breed will be finished. If you were a fighting bull how would you rather go? Fighting till the (maybe) end. Or sent to a slaughterhouse with the cows. Because the brave ones are so rare, the good ones are indicted and not killed.”
Nick Lopez: “I’ve been to one in Tijuana I think you guys are kinda wussy for saying this is sad yeah it’s sad but they do a lot with the meat after they don’t just leave it to rot and not only that the guy has a huge chance of getting his own ass jerked by the bull so don’t be a bitch.”
houseofbanafsheh: on this 💯- I think there is no beauty in any barbaric act! Although yes the clothing is lovely! The steps are lovely too but without a doubt, bottom line the act is cruel and barbaric! Although I do understand your reasons why your posted the shot but to many this image without a header is perceived as ” well I’m okay with this “! Therefore u will get backlashes! I curate shows and once I refused someone who wanted to show an image similar to this in a group show!”
Stüssy: “Right on @fashionsphinx, this is what I am trying to say, shit is real, world is fucked up, pick who or what you wanna hate on… but remember two sides to any discussion… just because we live in this modern world, does not mean we cast aside culture that came before without compassion for their point of view… anyway, way too heavy of a discussion when I just dug the stance of the man, simple…”
My favourite is the so-not-serious susannemelanieberry, the mixed-media artist: “hate the activity, love the outfits… and any nice ass shot.”
Got an opinion on bullfighting?
I tried to be tough when I went but couldn’t buy it. Oh I wept!
“Hahahahaha” – was that an actual argument? No real reply for that one I’m afraid.
“… you’re actually completely ignorant as to what actually goes on before a bullfight” – If YOU say it, then it must be so.
“…cultural relativism even into the territory of extreme animal cruelty.” – Does cultural relativism apply to Australia being 3rd in the list of meat consumption per capita (only topped by USA and Kuwait)? And I wasn’t trying to justify shit, I can pretty much tell you to fuck off as sovereignty allows just that, it’s those democracies’ right to deal and legislate according to THEIR culture without giving a roo’s ass about your pretense moral high ground. Human Rights on the other hand are legislated by UN and methinks Australia doesn’t have much high ground to stand on:
https://www.unaa.org.au/201…
http://mobile.abc.net.au/ne…
White guilt? Is there such thing over there? Good to know… there might be some hope then.
You’re obviously not very familiar with bullfighting… The fighting bulls live their whole lives free in the prairies surrounded by their heard (they want them wild not tamed or domesticated) until they are taken to the arena (on the very day). Even if they die in the arena (Spain yes, Portugal no) they far outlive the cattle that ends up on your burger or plate not to mention that they aren’t bred in massive farms in tiny cages or injected with hormones and antibiotics.
They’re also specific breeds that are centuries old and highly valued but not cost effective for meat production when compared to the highly genetically manipulated beef cattle hence would go extinct without bullfights.
Americans and Ozzies tend to poke their fucking noses in other people’s cultures and countries where they think their opinions should be the fucking law.
Maybe turn your emasculated half-attention to the way you treated (and treat) your native land owners. Methinks they’ve been suffering for more than 3 days…
I’ve only been to a couple bull fights, but I was struck by the ritualistic beauty and the will of the bullfighters to strike stylistic poses in the face of death. I bet big wave surfers have a lot to learn from the sport.
Come on mullet, you can do better than that!
Actually he doesn’t need to. That “the left” speech just rendered all your (partially pertinent) analysis moot. And then you go on to quote Hannah Arendt on Nazism, those known lefties…
Not sure how it rendered it moot. Just saying it does is very different from proving it! For example, saying “I am the best surfer in the world” is a different thing entirely from proving it. The “left” is a commonly used shorthand to describe progressive, socialist politics. I’m aware that there are anarchists, Bolshevists, Communists, Maoists, Leninsts, Socialists, Khmer Rouge (the list goes on and on as they change their name and tactics everytime it kills a bunch of people, which is often). The “left”, as I define it is a conglomeration of progressive political strategies designed to achieve total domination over one’s soul, to pull it out, rip it apart, remake it in their own (constantly shifting) image, and reinsert it in the biological husk of one’s body. Or, failing that, to destroy the body and soul if the soul won’t submit.
A society in which people seemgly care more for animals than human life is screwed. Abortion is a cruel act in which they brutalize the baby in unspeakable ways, but people are offended by killing sharks and shit. Get real people.
only vegetarians can legitimately criticize bullfighting as “cruel”
i find that those whining about “safe spaces” also happen to be the same people who are most easily offended. the guy even acknowledges tudor’s point yet still feels the need to wax poetic about “vibe” and “the romantic past” being wiped out by “safe rooms” or whatever
I’m a huge Joel Tudor fan but I think Stussy presented an iconic image and his responses were insightful. Sorry Joel, but your were a real asshole on this one.
Stussy is a master icon of style, Tudor is a washed up longboarder turned social media preacher.
Joel Tudor’s gay
tudor is too big a pussy to do it himself
Tudor tool
Eh. Ever since Joel sent his daddy out to beat up a kneeboarder (a KNEEboarder!) in the 90’s at Malibu, never respected the Joel-dude again. Of course, NOW he’s Mr. Jiu-Jitsu testosteronie and could take care of things himself (when wearing the proper garb, belt color, etc), but back then, your dad? a kneeboarder? you can never live that one down.
Testosteronie, haha; he’s an amazing surfer and I like that he isn’t afraid to speak his mind, which I sometimes agree with; but, most the time I find his opinions to be idiotic rants of a wanna-be-stoner-philosopher. Ultimately, he just seems like a dweeb. That being said, I enjoy listening to him talk about surfboards, and he’d probably be a cool guy to talk story with.
Interesting discussion but I’m left with this…if you guys think that Joel Tudor is a prick, sack up with an article discussing your views. I’m not a fan personally, but I kinda feel like this pussy-footing is leaving the shit talking to the commentators. Wait, this is what the site is made for. Proceed.
First time you’ve ever made sense. Congrats!
Validation from the esteemed BG commentator Nik Karol!? I can now die a happy man!
Make it quick!
I’m tying the noose as we speak!
Stop and call a loved one! And if they don’t pick up immediately, leave a voice mail and wait until they get back to you.
The light fixture broke ;( here’s to second chances. Maybe I’ll just do a WhatsApp group suicide note…
Where would we go for a dose of guilt-free gore without the bullfighting? Here’s an old favourite:
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
PS: I thought the post from Shawn was very polite and non-confrontational, but the slaughterhouse comparison is still a logical fallacy.
beautiful
Stussy is a gent of the highest order. This we can all agree on.
Well if 2017 isn’t a Dangerous Summer, I don’t know what is.
IRONY TIME: The great Joel Tudor owes more to bullfighters than he might imagine. It was the great Jack Haley (few under the age of 60 will know this former U.S. Champion) once told me that many of the style moves in surfing came not from Hawaii, but yes, Tijuana! Jack and the boys (I think Steve Pezman, who once threw a watermelon at a matador and was taken to the infamous Tijuana jail for it was among them). Turns out that many of the top surfers in the HB, SB area used to drive down (Jack actually stole a train at Trestles once to get there, but that’s another story) to the bullring on numerous Sunday afternoons. Sans hair and clothing, the dude below could be Tudor.
I like this bull!
Can’t you just hear Johnny Cash!
http://www.ocregister.com/2…
Bullfighting is proof that the surrender to the cultural left is not yet total, that the past cannot always be memory holed, and that there is reason for hope. If I were a bull, I’d rather be in with a chance of doing my executioner in, than going through the slicey dicey factory.
Curious as to what types of “past” you are worried the “left” is trying to “memory hole”? Honestly curious.
A little late of a reply, I know, but the “memory hole” comes from Orwell’s 1984, and refers to the attempt to control the past by erasure or revision. It was main character’s (Winston’s) job to rewrite the past for the totalitarian political party and to destroy evidence that a different past had ever existed—send it down the memory hole—where it would be destroyed. This is an effective strategy, because if you can rewrite the past to suit your present needs, you can modify behavior–“who controls the past controls the future”. For example, the famous erasure of the cigarette from McCartney’s hand in the Abbey Road album cover, made by politically correct poster publishers and merchandisers, because, smoking is bad, don’t cha know, and you don’t want to encourage children. This is why smoking Chas will never be made into a plush kids toy.
With regard to bull fighting, there is tremendous political and cultural pressure applied by the left to erase its practice and revise its significance from a heroic, masculine, tragic, and beautiful dance with mortality and individuality, to one of simple animal cruelty, because the left hates all those things, particularly because they can’t control them, and anything they can’t control must be removed, and ultimately forgotten. The fact that something so reviled by the left still survives is a wonderful thing, and shows that they are not as inevitable and irresistible as they claim.
Surfing, I believe, is under a similar assault (though more indirect), perhaps because, like bull-fighting, it is masculine and occasionally heroic, enforcing a pecking order based on strength, brains, and merit rather than an “everyone gets a nice wave”. It is a sport closely aligned with human nature in many respects. With the new WSL CEO hire, I predict an attempt to androgynize what many find most interesting about the sport.
If you’re up for an interesting read, you can look at the last couple of chapters of “The Origins of Totalitarianism” by Hannah Arendt, a Jewish philosopher who escaped Nazi Germany, and examined at the similarities between Nazism and Communism. Orwell’s a great one too, but in my opinion she saw totalitarian systems for what they were more clearly.
I don’t think classifying people as “leftys” or “conservatives” is helpful; I think it’s a tool to divide. That being said, the spaniards are very liberal yet very conservative, and they aren’t giving up bull fighting anytime soon. The British complained about bullfighting and the spaniards replied by saying: “look at how you treat your elderly.” (Spaniards take care of the elderly, including them in family life; the British put them in homes, to wait for death).
I appreciate that you took the time to offer a well-reasoned reply. “Fuck off, cunt face” is all I usually get here. I agree to an extent that “left”, “right” categories are not entirely accurate. The real enemy is totalitarianism, the attempt to control every aspect of one’s life with a political system, and to punish any transgressions from that system, a denial of freedom. “Left” is shorthand for referring to the most recent historical iteration of that impulse, which tends to align itself with Socialist notions as a means of attaining its ultimate goal: reality defining power. Arendt is very good on explaining these ideas. The totalitarian “left” couldn’t give two shits about your healthcare, your salary, minorities, your sexual preferences, etc. They will, however, use these as a means of ripping you apart and owning your soul: “I love Big Brother!!!” is the ultimate end, though this can be achieved from the far-right as well: Nazism.
Modern conservatism (in the US, anyway) is a tilt towards freedom, towards recognizing and placing limits on power, that there is a private life, that much of life should remain unsullied by un-elected, unwanted political control. The US constitution, with its guarantees on free speech and its inclusion of the means to cast off the government should the citizenry desire it; is a profoundly “conservative” document in this regard. In my opinion, governments around the world would be less likely to trample rights if their governments feared their citizens more.
With regard to the Spain, if you ever watch a bullfight there, it will come down along the left/right lines very clearly, with “pros” being called fascists, and “antis” being called communists. Nevertheless, it is worth watching one if you get a chance, and represents a poetic struggle, if you allow yourself to see it, made all the sweeter that it pisses off totalitarians.
Yep, the Brits are bastards to their oldies, for sure. Pay into the system their whole life, and their heart surgery is denied so some dude who thinks he’s not can get a pair of tits. Fucking disgrace.
So, when challenged, you do make distinction between totalitarian left and left but still use just lefties for shorthand. Why not use Righties as, as you admitted, there are also totalitarian rights? Maybe just use totalitarianism… btw, the jewish state of Israel is also quite fond, in all their conservative right, to constantly revise history to better suit their vision and political geo-strategy. But let’s just call all those freedom hating revisionists “lefties”, why not?
Well, this is a fruitful discussion, to be sure, Mr. Moy! The reason I focus on “lefties” (and I use that as shorthand, rather than as a pejorative term, even when I say “lefty fucker” the pejorative stress is on the latter term) is because following WWII with the defeat of Germany and Japan (totalitarian “righties”), leftist politics are by far the most prevalent and effective route to totalitarian power in the modern world. The left owns the discourse in European politics, for example. Even in Britain, with an ostensibly “conservative” government in power, they are only able to operate in terms of the left, at least culturally and in general policy wise (for example, it is politically impossible to do away with the NHS). And yet, as Brexit and bullfighting has proven, the left is not all-powerful, and that is a good thing. In fact the fuckers lost the cold war, though you would hardly know it. Hell, with the election of Trump, it is proven that though much of the left’s power is derived from their control over the narrative, in fact it can be a paper tiger. Totalitarianism can be resisted effectively. Freedom can triumph.
As the rise of Islamism and sharia has shown, (sharia courts in the UK, no-go zones in France) totalitarian theocracy is also on the rise. Lefty totalitarians recognize a kindred spirit, and are happy to oblige their brethren’s excesses, importing them wholesale, paying for them to increase in population, and ignoring things which directly contradict western values (like female circumcision, mass murder of innocents), likely because they believe Islamists can be used as a tool to undercut western democracy. I think they are biting off more than they can chew with that lot, who actually seem to believe in what they are murdering for, and who would, given the chance, gladly throw lefties off buildings if they don’t pray to Mecca.
The small world of surfing is, like much of the West, naturally resistant to lefty totalitarian discourse and action (for example, Stab comments, and even BG which publishes things that are seemingly engineered to enrage established power structures). I believe this is in large part because, unlike most team sports, which are hierarchically organized, and therefore the left need only need to capture the top to rule the bottom (“Pride” night at the NBA finals, for example), surfing as practiced is bottom up, extremely individualistic and meritocratic. You tend to get the wave you deserve, not the one coach told you to take.
This is obviously not always the case with the top down WSL, and I fear the introduction of leftist politics, which, being totalitarian in nature, will try to force our water heroes to say: “I love big brother!” on things not related to surfing or judging decisions. The hope for resistance is in the surfing audience: if they reject someone trying to force shit down their throats and refuse to support the invasion of politics into their viewing pleasure, the profit margin is so thin that it can’t be sustained, unlike the NFL, for example, which can survive as its audience base, though numerically diminished by those who reject leftism, is still large enough to make a profit.
Stussy has a little mojo. Me’s think he defended his point just fine. Surprised he didn’t choose a stronger image to high light his vision..